LMS Conference Lookout - D2L Fusion and InstructureCon 2025

Phil: All right, let's talk about other vendors. Then the following week is both D2L Fusion, which is in Savannah, Georgia, Morgan's going, and then InstructureCon, which is in Spokane, Washington that I'm going to. let's start with D2L Fusion. And I will point out, I went to that last year, this year Morgan's going to it. Last year it was dominated by D2L saying we're differentiating based on interactive content development Increase it with a H5p acquisition and their own creator plus. How do we offer more for people to not just create content but interactive content within the LMS. That was what dominated last year and AI was within that context. How does it help get that done and a few other things. it's quite different than anthology. This year I'm not quite sure if you have a good preview of what it's going to be but Morgan: what are you going to be looking for at the conference beyond some excellent haunted seafood joints while you're in Savannah?

Morgan: I'm going to be staying inside. That's what I'm going to be doing having had a taste of Southern summer recently in Atlanta I'm be staying inside in the probably pretty good air conditioning that's what I'm be doing but I think following on of their non-credit move because they have Purchased a company that they're that they're doing there, but I want to see what the progress is. I think also it relates to that to that approach about

Content and things that but gets to some larger things that I'm looking at is Pricing strategy and the way that they're sort of thinking about that and how that's going to work because I think LMS is our traditionally underpriced places are looking at the At the add-ons and things that which traditionally doesn't go down well with clients. what is that sort of tension there? that's another thing that I'm going to be looking at I'm also

This is just a small thing, but I'm going to be looking for clients from Canada who aren't yet clients of D2L to see what's going on because there's some pressure in Canada, particularly Ontario, move to D2L in terms of the trade troubles. those are some of the things I'm going to be looking at. But again, to see how far that content strategy has evolved because it's all pretty well to announce it, but it's really the evolution that's really important to me.

Can you move on from that initial announcement?

Phil: this is risky, but you're breezing past two points that I think we've written about, but I think we need to highlight, because they're significant. One is you talked about LMS is underpriced. Morgan, once again saying, colleges and universities, you are not paying enough for your LMS or VLE. The second thing you mentioned was the very pithy phrase, the trade troubles. describe both of those a little bit more.

Morgan: And you mentioned Risky and a few years back I said this exact thing to the CEO of one of the LMS companies and actually a very calm man normally but I thought he was going to punch me he almost climbed over the table he didn't that but if you look at the pricing for LMS is it's remained flat for a very long time even if they've even if they

as they have added extra features and put a lot of investment into things AI and making the user interface thing. I think it's underpriced relative to the importance on the campus and to what it's doing as well. The trade troubles. I'm borrowing a page from Neil's countrymen who talked about the troubles, .

it's not quite as bad as that but the tariff wars between the United States and everybody including islands of penguins who fortunately don't have LMS companies but I'm hearing from some Canadian clients that there is some pressure to start to think about moving away from an instructor or a blackboard in part

to limit their vulnerability to some of this tariff concern even though in the past these kinds of services have not been subject to tariffs. I right in that Phil?

Phil: , I think that's right. I would liken it to in the mid to late 2010s, I got the same feeling in Europe, although it started out as sort of the dominant feeling of, because of the NSA and the data privacy issues. And there was a heavy bias against US companies because of, how do we know that your data isn't going to be going to the US and then you have no idea where it's going?

And I think the AWS Center in Frankfurt really helped solve that bias. But I liken that. What you're saying is there's an emerging bias from Canadian institutions to not go American. That's what I'm hearing from you.

Morgan: I'll be walking around saying, hey, anybody want to watch some hockey? Out and about, to see if anybody comes and chats with me.

Phil: . my gosh. I'm not sure you should do that.

Neil: I think.

Neil: I think we just

Phil: I can't tell if that's a South African or Canadian accent, but I...

Morgan: I'm not good at accents, , it's bad enough having my own one, although I sometimes joke that if I'd known that having an accent was going to be such a big hit, I would gotten one earlier, but...

Phil: . Neil, tell us about D2L in your mind and what questions you have.

Neil: I'm fascinated because I never expected the LMS to be part of a kind of a bi-local, bi-regional kind of movement, but maybe that's going to be the Canadian campaign for D2L. I should watch that with interest. , , , . I think...

Phil: LMS to table movement. Yes.

Neil: the strategic point that Morgan: made around the kind of add-on.

strategy I think is front of mind for me just because I remember when I was in Amsterdam for the D2L conference, the European conference, I think one of the things that struck me in one of the sessions, and I forget which add-on it was now, forgive me, but the show of hands for people who'd actually adopted it was not what you would have hoped it to be in a session that. And , , when you're sort of executing on that strategy and you're developing those kind of add-ons,

I mean you want to see you want to see impact but ultimately you also want to see

and prove that kind of strategy really. I'm not sure that this would necessarily come to light at conference, but it's certainly not through the main sessions, but it's kind of gauging the extent to which actually people are adopting these things that are kind of new and developing such that you can get a sense of actually how that strategy is performing. Because we kind of questioned it in the past around institutional finances and whether even these things would come under review when institutions

are thinking about a VLE change. that's a big one for me. I've seen bits and bobs around Lumi, I'm kind of interested in seeing how that's progressing and how...

Phil: And just for people, Lumi is their branding of the AI tools within D2L Brightspace.

Neil: , I'm interested in how big that becomes. I'm interested in whether that continues to be this thing or whether it just gets kind of, I guess, of, it just blends into the product if I can put it that. Because I think that's another element of how you think about AI in relation to a product too. those are the big things for me for.

For D2L, maybe one other thing if I can just add it. I'm just interested also in terms of focus because I think, know, to my earlier point, when I sort of survey the scene in maybe the last six months for some of these companies in the UK, I see a lot of stuff around kind of international movements and adoptions and things , know, detail have been really pushing around kind of that presence in Ireland. And , , it's sort of what's coming out in terms of market focus.

and whether that tells you anything.

Phil: one thing about D2L, mean, they have, , clearly they, along with Instructure Canvas, have been the winners in terms of new implementations, but we've already described there aren't that many opportunities anymore.

Phil: and we're not sure when that's going to increase. But they've also go into your point. They've invested in a lot of features. They've always had a lot of features, particularly compared to Canvas. But with the Cont, the Lumi, the Creator Plus, the H5P acquisition, they have even more. part of it is how much do they or how well is that leveraging of depth of features?

impacting what people are talking about. I'd love to hear from you Morgan: about what people are people talking about. this feature in Creator Plus this feature over here or is Neal's talking about even the if you get the whole raise of hands who's using Creator Plus and paying for it to make yourself popular. I would add one other thing Stephen Laster leaving and going to Panopto he was president and COO John

Baker, founder, CEO, is jumping back into that more of that operational role. But that raises a question, are we sort of pulling the company backwards in time, not necessarily backwards in functionality, but what is the management change, particularly with Steven leaving? What does that mean and does that change the direction of where they're going?

John's the John's the is by far the remaining founder CEO who's there right? how much does that longevity and , it's not all private equity and stuff that How does that play from a management perspective is another big question even more than last year from what I saw

Morgan: survivor.

Phil: Going back to that pricing, think that it's, we talked about the stability of pricing, which is not necessarily good,

because the LMS market is underpriced, that's what often forces companies to go into corporate markets or do other things just to justify themselves to investors, which isn't necessarily good with colleges and their core audience. part of the reason I think it's underpriced is because if these systems were priced higher, I think we'd get more focus from the companies of truly supporting what colleges and universities need.

but direct your IR at Morgan: for that point.

Morgan: And just from 2014 to 2022, I just did a lot of contract reviews with institutions. And especially in the earlier part of that period, , the mid, the mid teens, there was a lot of, particularly of blackboard of just add ons and things that. And I think places, , really underestimate how much that annoys higher ed. It just drives them crazy. that when instructor came with very simple.

Contracts just one price pretty much that included everything that they needed They jumped to that just because they that simplicity in a way, sure there were other things going on But that was a big part of it

Phil: true. All right, let's move on to InstructureCon. I'll be going to Spokane, Washington. , Spokane and Savannah, not easy places to get to. I know you criticize Las Vegas, but at least Vegas is easy to travel to.

And I listened to you, you said there's an excellent restaurant at the Fontainebleau. Emily is coming out with me, I think just for the spa and just we can find the restaurant that you were telling me I have to go to. there are important things to solve.

Phil: InstructureCon. this is going to be a very interesting time for them partially to see how they're taking advantage of other opportunities, particularly the anthology. And let's build on the pricing. For the first time, anthology, Instructure has always been very solid and disciplined with their pricing.

I think they're trying to be very aggressive in taking advantage of the cloud over Blackboard because of the depth structure.

Excuse me. that's one of the things I'll be looking for. The other one, and I'll go back to this Gemini for Education, I've been critical of Instructure that their product group is just not putting out very much. if they reintroduce Conmigo for a third time at this InstructureCon, I'm going to...

Write that will be a stand-alone post criticizing. You can't keep doing that. You need your own product strategy. And I just don't see much.

Having said that and having the topic we had about AI, there is an argument saying, well, Neil, you even mentioned, , what's the incentive for developing AI when it's not really being used for pedagogical advancements at universities? There can be an argument for the Canvas strategy of saying, no, we're not putting much into new features because we just want to integrate. Maybe it's not Conmigo, but the Gemini for Educat-

Phil: also announced that you can now access those tools directly within Canvas. Notebook LM, they're going to make it easier to access Notebook LM. there's a strong, and I think Power School is the other version, obviously Google Classroom. there's an argument to say, hey, we shouldn't be doing too much product, we should just be getting these other tools in there.

There's another piece, which is I can't talk too much detail, but I mean, , we are hearing whispers that there might be some meaningful product announcements more than the past two years of InstructureCon. when I go there, I'm going to be seeing what is their product strategy and is it a coherent story, particularly vis-a-vis Gen. AI and Big Tech.

and are they going to be announcing product advancements specifically in Canvas that gets their customers to do what they used to do where people in the audience where they hear it they're thank you we've been waiting for that much

I'm really looking for that and just sort of the general mood because in Structure's executive team, right now you have about three people who are remaining, maybe four if you include, well, some of the back office people who remain from an education, ed tech background or from a long time in StructureCon. They have a lot of new executives who come from completely

outside of education, you're not seeing them talk. I don't, I have a question, how well do they know the market, the new chief revenue officer, how well does that person understand what the real pain points of higher ed is and how colleges and universities think? Are they, there's a risk they're becoming too corporate, too private equity based.

Phil: Or maybe they're just going to running, , operating extremely well. I'll be looking at their management situation as well. having said all that, what are your big observations and questions on Instructure that I should be looking for, the questions that you have that you hope that come out in the July timeframe?

Morgan: I can jump in. I've got two sort of additional ones to all the ones that you're looking at. The one is what is their strategy, R.E. Parchment in specific and the whole workforce thing. I've heard rumors that headlamp didn't work, that it's not going on there. I've never heard a coherent approach to what they're doing there. And I really want to figure out, ,

Phil: Could you describe headlamp? What you mean by that?

Morgan: I don't know a lot about it, I've just heard, it was a way of helping to prepare students and connect them with employers as well. If , if you've got a more pithy one, that would be great. I want a better approach to what they're doing there, what their long term plan is. , it seems there's a lot of spaghetti being thrown at the wall or , , this is going to help us some way. And I think there's there's a real risk of it running into some real problems or not sort of having.

Phil: Okay.

Morgan: the features that can keep clients there. that would be the other thing. And then again, it's the non-credit stuff. Last year at InstructureCon, I made the point of going to a lot of the non-credit presentations and , it felt a bit schools were saying, , know, catalog is working for us, but long as I stand on one leg and ...

recite Wordsworth backwards seven times and twist the light bulb. That's when it works, , to do this particular very common task that I need to do. I want to see if they're investing in that and what the product line looks . Because again, it sort of seems they have ideas. A lot of LMS strategy feels a bit my blogging pipeline. , I've got a lot of great ideas, but then following it through with an actual post.

sometimes takes a lot more work and they're not doing their work to get it to that thing. those would be my two big ones.

Phil: post. You have a new newsletter that you're committing to by next Friday.

Morgan: I am. In fact, I have posts. I have posts. And I needed to talk to you about helping me set up the thing. And I feel guilty because you just had a daughter get married and a kid and a new grandchild. I actually am ready to do it. But I need your help.

Phil: the day before I hop on a plane.

Morgan: Yes, that's why I said I'm feeling guilty, I don't want to do it, maybe we need to wait until...

Neil: I was just going to say I feel seen in what you were saying around blog posts and ideas and those coming to fruition. , if anyone...

They'd confirm that. , I think for me I've liked some of the AI

features that they've developed, things the kind of intelligent insights and translation and things that. I suppose, and this is probably my bad, but the extent to which some of those things are actually rolled out more widely would be interesting to understand. And maybe that's in the public domain and it's my bad. But I think it's just interesting. I was thinking about this as you guys were speaking that

is do we really get a sense that we could put a

a label on their AI product strategy in the way that we might do some of the other vendors and maybe that's fine, but I think it's just the absence of understanding what the strategy is or to be able to glean the strategy. If it is that kind of, we're not going to make this a big thing in of itself, we're going to make adjustments to the product and that's our strategy and then we might kind of bring in, , other ed tech Khanmigo.

Phil: the way, let me put a phrase on it. What we're looking for, because I think all three of us are describing in different ways, we're looking to see if there's any coherence in their product strategy. Not just individual good ideas. Is there any coherence? That's the non-sexy label I would add.

Neil: Yep.

Neil: no, that's a great that's a great way of putting it I mean, I think the other thing for me is I suppose I've kind of maybe said in the past I feel they talk about I think more than the other companies they talk a bit more about higher education trends micro credentials and things that, and I think I'm interested to

to get a sense of how that translates into strategy and prioritization around some of the things that Morgan: talked around about catalog because I know that they are.

They are sort of invested in those developments in the UK, the lifelong learning entitlement and that kind of shorter provision. I know that they're engaged in that side of things, but the extent to which I've seen that translated in terms of product and there may be being a bit more...

A bit kind of louder around things catalog. I think that's what I'm interested to see I mean in the UK I would say , they've really built a very strong position I think around canvas over here and it's , maybe there is a bit more rope to

prioritize other products and align with other challenges that institutions have. But I guess I'm not seeing that directly. And that would be interesting to see and observe. mean, think on a more specific point around Parchment, Parchment feels less aligned with the UK space. But catalog is the one, I suppose, that my eyes are kind of more fixed on.

Phil: I am too. I realize that Parchment's more important. Morgan: knows that market better than I do. But , I'm looking for coherence, a story to make it understandable across all of those product lines. On the positive side, I was thinking another way to describe this, of all of the vendors, Instructure has the best finances.

They're the strongest in terms of money. They spend a lot of time offshoring development to Hungary, a lot of layoffs. They've been better in the management side. And now they have KKR behind them as private equity. They have the greatest financial resources. Does that come out in their strategy as far as what they can do? Not just buying Parchment, but the ability to... to differentiate behind them.